Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:11] Speaker B: Welcome to the Comeback with Boomerang Healthcare, your podcast for relief, recovery and restoration.
I'm Dr. Peter Abachi.
[00:00:21] Speaker C: And I'm Dr. Sarah Guzet. As doctors, we know healing isn't just about treatment. It's about having the right tools, mindset and support to move you forward.
[00:00:31] Speaker B: You can have pain, you might be injured or even hurting on the inside, but with all that you got going on, you can still have a really great life. And that is what we are here for. This is the Comeback. Let's get started.
Sarah Today we have a subject that is near and dear to my heart that we're going to talk about, which is acupuncture and who is going to be joining us. To break it down, I'm, I'm very
[00:00:59] Speaker C: excited about this one, Peter. So I've had the pleasure of working with Dr. Amy Thornton for years and I know that she is a very, very passionate provider. She's an orthopedic, focused acupuncturist and seasoned pain educator.
She holds a doctorate degree in acupuncture and Chinese medicine and brings over 20 years of experience in the realm of mind, body, healing and medicine. We're so excited to have you here this morning, Amy, welcome.
[00:01:26] Speaker A: Thank you so much, Peter and Sarah, I really appreciate you offering to have me on.
[00:01:31] Speaker B: Awesome. Amy, let's start off with how the heck did you get into doing acupuncture?
[00:01:37] Speaker A: I know, it's kind of a weird one. Even I'll admit that acupuncture, it's a little out there for some people.
I was a massage therapist in my early 20s and you know, after five, six years, I kind of one realized that, you know, massage could only take my clients so far, that there were emotional things in the way, there were life challenges and I, I could see that there was something that just was stuck with people. And I also knew that I could only do massage for so long because it's pretty physical job and as, as wonderful and lovely as it is. Yeah, you have a time limit on it. So I started looking, you know, what's the other things that I could do. And then I, I met somebody. I ended up working at the same place as an acupuncturist.
And you know, we started kind of cross referring and I had sent her somebody that had a laminectomy, which was a very popular lumbar surgery back in those days. And that person had left, been left with nerve damage in their foot and they couldn't feel parts of their foot. And so I had sent them over to my friend Jill, and she was able to bring some of the nerve back online for this lady. And I thought, well, that. That's really cool. Like, that's amazing, you know, and so between that and just trying to figure out, like, do I want to be a physical therapist? I said, acupuncture is going to be the thing that's going to give me more options to work with people emotionally and work with them on a different, not just physical, level. So that's how I got there.
[00:02:57] Speaker C: I'm curious for. For someone who's never, ever tried acupuncture, I know many of your patients, this might be their first experience when they meet you. How would you describe what it is and how it works in, like, really simple terms so that I can understand it, too?
[00:03:12] Speaker A: Yes. So I get many people at BHC that this is their very first time getting acupuncture. And of course, you know, a lot of people are nervous about it, or they. They go on the Internet or they see it in movies, and they think that we're going to be using these giant needles and there's going to be a million of them, and it's very dramatized, and so people can come in with that. And really, what acupuncture is at its core is just taking little, teeny, tiny needles that are almost like wires. They're just the thickness of a couple of hairs, really, and inserting them into different points on what we call meridians, or energy lines in the body.
And there's a lot of ways to do acupuncture, but it's actually quite manageable for most people. Usually I say, you know, we're going to talk first. I'm going to get some information from you, use my hands and my eyes, and the information you give me to determine how I'm going to do a treatment. And then I always give people the option, hey, we try one, and you hate this, and you never want to do it again. You can run out the door. That's okay. You're not. No one's forced to be here.
And I let people know that my mom was really, you know, worried about getting acupuncture, and I, you know, showed her on myself, and then I did it on her, and she's like, oh, okay, that's not a big deal. She kind of realized it actually is not that scary. So even though it sounds scary, so people come in, I give them my little spiel, and then I'm going to have them lay down. We'll do some just kind of checking Their body with hands, with vision.
And then we use alcohol swab to clean the area and then use a little guide tube and just meal and pop it in. And they get to lay there and feel a sensation. Some people feel nothing, some people feel everything.
Some people get mixed on different points and then they find that once everything's in that they tend to relax and actually have a nice relaxing session. Even though it doesn't sound like needles are relaxing. I get a lot of people that keep coming back and they're like, I can't wait for my acupuncture. I'm so excited to be here because it's the first time that they actually get to relax.
[00:05:16] Speaker B: Amy, you know, as we go into this, I'm going to be really interested to pick your brain on the science, you know, behind acupuncture. But before we do, maybe you could say a little bit about the history of it, because I think it goes back thousands of years. And when you look at where we are with healthcare and medicine and artificial intelligence and, you know, fancy drugs and fancy technology, and we're still using acupuncture to this day. And if anything, it's probably growing, you know, as we, we try to expand our horizons and how we manage our health, gravitate away from maybe addictive medications and things that may be, might be, turn out to be harmful.
This seems to be tried, true and safe.
Maybe talk us through how acupuncture kind of came to be and maybe how it came to the Western world many centuries later.
[00:06:18] Speaker A: Okay, I will give you my best understanding of these things. So, yes, acupuncture has, as far as I know, around a 3,000 year history originating in China.
There are also many other Asian countries. Like Korea has its own style, Japan has its own style. Beyond acupuncture, before that was actually Chinese herbal medicine. So when we talk about acupuncture, we're actually talking about Chinese medicine as a whole as well, which includes a giant materia medica full of all kinds of different substances that can be used to treat the body. And I believe that actually has a 4,000 year history. I'm not a history buff, so I might be getting that wrong. So I apologize to anyone who knows better than I do on that.
As far as my understanding of how it's actually been brought to the United States, what I have heard is that around the 70s, the United States, Western world started becoming more interested in exchange, like cultural exchange and seeing what was available.
And my understanding is that Nixon actually had something to do with it. In the 70s, there was some kind of cultural exchange with China.
In China, they actually already have fully integrated Western and Eastern medicine because they had brought, you know, been open. Brought their Western medicine. And I actually got to visit a hospital there where they had, you know, acupuncture wards. They had tui Na, which is Chinese medical massage, and then also an herbal section, and then as well as their Western medicine. So I hope that that's actually what we get to in the United States, because there's this rich history of really being able to treat people holistically. We're actually looking at patterns, what's showing up in this person that's observable by their own experience. And also what. What the doctor, what the provider's seeing, you know, on their. Their tongue, on their skin and their pulse. And we call the shen their spirit. Like, how are they coming through? And then. So also, one of the really cool things about acupuncture in the United States is that actually the Black Panthers in New York City had a big hand in bringing acupuncture to where it is right now. So.
Yeah, no, we see that one coming. Yeah. So this is amazing. So back in, I believe it was the 70s, the Lincoln detox Center. So what was happening is that the black community at that time was not getting the care that they needed, and there was a lot of addiction running rampant. And again, forgive me, this is not the full story. This is just the short version that I know. So there's actually documentary out there about this, which is really cool.
So anyway, they were not able to get care. And there was a Dr.
Shakur, who I think is actually related to Tupac. I'm a little unclear on that history. So there's some really interesting stuff going on here. Anyway, they had met a Chinese doctor, and they were able to start doing what we now know as the NADA protocol, which is five needles in each ear that's used for addiction. And so they were able to bring care to their community for very little money and actually have somebody doing care. So this Lincoln Detox center started is basically on the forefront of how we actually used acupuncture for addiction.
Beyond that, they started using acupuncture in Chinese medicine and cancer care centers. And so I think between 70s, 80s, and 90s, we're now in a much different place in this country with acceptance of Chinese medicine as being something that's viable and helpful. And now there's a lot more studies and there's a modern application for. For Chinese medicine that is more than just, you Know how it was developed over 3,000 years ago, which is something I don't know that they know. I think they were saying, well, some. Some sages sat and meditated and they were able to, you know, see these channels in the body. And then they figured things out through trial and error. And it's like, well, we don't know exactly.
[00:09:57] Speaker B: But they didn't have needles right when they started.
[00:10:01] Speaker A: Correct. So they didn't have needles. But what they do, what I've actually seen is stone carved into needles. And they say that the reason they know that it goes back 3000 years is they actually found. Sorry, guys, this is scary.
They found bones with marks in them from these quote unquote needles, which. No, thank you.
I don't want that. But, yeah, so now, of course, now we have machines to make.
[00:10:24] Speaker B: I hope that patient got a refund for that.
[00:10:28] Speaker A: Yeah, so, yeah, the history of Chinese medicine in China is very rich. You know, like emperors would use it. Now they have what's called traditional Chinese medicine, which is something that can be taught as a college program. And that's what we're taught here in the United States.
So in California, we do a master's degree that takes about four years. And that is the traditional Chinese medicine, which includes, you know, learning Western medicine because people come to us with Western issues. So if you're coming in and telling me you have spondylosis, I need to know what you're telling me. Right. And I also need to know when to refer. If there's an emergency situation, I need to be able to recognize that. So we learn a lot of Western medicine, and then we learn the language of Chinese medicine, which is about organs and meridians and seasons and all of these. These things that are sort of related to nature.
And then we combine it all together in order to actually treat people.
[00:11:21] Speaker C: What a deep history that it has. And I'm curious because to your point, right, in other cultures, it's been used for thousands of years for a variety of treatment. And I know that in the US we use it also for all sorts of things, from infertility to chronic pain.
And many of our listeners out there are, you know, trying to live with grace with their chronic pain condition. And so I'm curious, when it comes to. To your chronic pain patients, how does it actually help the body? I am. I am curious specifically about that.
[00:11:53] Speaker A: That is a great question. And you are correct. You can actually use Chinese medicine for just about any type of condition, including chronic conditions. And I think it's really great for that. So what I would say from my years of working with chronic pain patients, which at this point is about seven years, is that the number one thing that we do is help to regulate the nervous system.
So people in pain are stressed. Pain is stressful. We know that. Not to mention being in a healthcare system that's not always supportive can be very stressful. We know that people with chronic pain are not sleeping well. There's, you know, mental emotional stressors. There's just a lot of stress.
So when I can have somebody come in, the session starts as soon as I open the door and greet them, right? It's hi, how are you coming in? And so there's actually a therapeutic interaction that's happening between us even before the needles come in. And a lot of times just me listening and being there and being present with the patient in an unhurried way is a part of that nervous system regulation. We can co regulate. I can see their stress, I can see their fear. I, I can acknowledge it, I can validate it. And for so many people, especially, you know, dealing with chronic pain, a lot of times they feel dismissed, you know, or maybe not hurt or just like, okay. And, and I never want to blame, you know, medical doctors for that, where people feel like that, because I understand that the insurance system and the way that we have to work is hurried. You know, it makes people have to hurry. So the cool thing with acupuncture is that I actually have time to talk to people.
And so we start that therapeutic process and then the actual insertion of the needles does basically turn the nervous system out of fight or flight and into relax and digest. And if people don't know what that means, stress is, we're in fight or flight. Our nervous system is activated. It's looking, our brain is looking for danger. We're always on edge and the body can't relax. If you think about, if a bear is in the woods and you see that bear, your whole system is going to tighten up, right? Your shoulders are going to tighten up, your arms are going to tighten, your, you're probably going to hold your breath and your body's going to be ready to either fight that bear off, you know, or run away from it or freeze so that it doesn't see you. And that same thing is what happens when we have pain and other stressors. So if I can take somebody out of that state, which is a state of survival, and get them into a state of healing, which is the relax and digest phase, that's the opposite. We're, we're basically turning the nervous system from fight or flight into relax and digest.
Now their body, their brain, has space to actually heal. And when that happens, what we find, number one, is that people's sleep gets better. That's usually the first thing that I see with my patients.
Maybe the pain's not better. Sometimes it is immediately, not always. They start to sleep better. When they sleep better, they're actually able to have less pain, less stress. They can manage their emotions better. And then from there, usually the pain starts to diminish.
Yes, we want pain relief as well. I mean, aside from all of that, if we only did that, I think that would be amazing. That would be a lot.
But then beyond that, we can actually work locally with inflammation. We can help the swelling come down. I literally see swelling change during treatments, and patients see that as well.
Mobility.
I'm an orthopedic, focused acupuncturist. That means I get into muscles, and I actually can. Similar to massage. I actually think of it as a massage with needles, which I think sounds terrible to most people. It's like, why would I want that? Because it works really fast. Like, I was a massage therapist before. It would take a long time to strip these muscles and lengthen them. And now with acupuncture needles, I can do it in a second, and I can actually release the muscles.
So as far as, like, actually, what's happening for patients, they might be able to move their shoulder better for the first time in a long time. They might be sleeping better for the first time. You might actually be relaxing, taking a deep breath. People, they come in and they're like, all right, guys, let's take it down a notch. So even giving somebody the space to breathe can be very valuable in their healing process.
[00:15:51] Speaker B: Amy, for people who are a little new to acupuncture and some of the terms, when you talk about meridians, maybe you could explain a little bit about, A, what that means, and B, how we can translate that into what we know about modern science around acupuncture and, like, for example, the fight or flight and the stress response. And how does the assort of ancient theory of meridians? And I think also to point out one of the cool things about Chinese medicine and Eastern approaches is I think they approach injury or disease or sickness as a whole body thing. And when one part of the body is not well, the whole body's not well. And trying to get homeostasis back, as opposed to Western medicine, where we always just kind of focus on just treating a specific body part. Or specific injury. So maybe kind of talk us through the meridians and how we can understand that with our modern Western brains a little bit.
[00:16:56] Speaker A: It's a great question. It's a big question. And I think that, you know, you
[00:17:01] Speaker B: can thank me now.
[00:17:02] Speaker A: Yeah, I think what I can say is that, number one, we don't 100% know how acupuncture actually works. You know, as far as the Western perspective of it, what they're doing right now is actually looking at functional MRIs and saying, like, when we insert needles in this area, it does something in the brain. We're pretty sure it's releasing, you know, our endorphins and helping with pain relief that way. But as far as how does it actually work based on.
Separately from how we understand that it works in Chinese medicine? I think that that question is still being asked and figured out. And the question that we really want to ask now is with the standard of care that already exists for this particular condition, how can acupuncture help? Or how is it different, or how is it worse or better? So that's really where we're at more than just like, how does this work?
Your question about holistic medicine. So acupuncture in Chinese medicine is holistic, meaning that we're looking at. Yes, the whole system.
Now, how it works in chronic pain and inside of the Western medical system, I would say is not totally holistic. I'm actually not able to use traditional Chinese medicine when I'm working inside of an insurance system just for a variety of reasons. That's boring and not really worth getting into. So I will say that my work at boomerang is definitely not the full Chinese medicine. Like, I can't really do herbal medicine or any of that stuff.
When we're looking at you as a whole person, it's, you know, what?
Typically, like, if you would went out to acupuncture to a private clinic, they're going to look at your history when you started having certain developmental stages in your life, maybe you had major traumas. And the reason they're doing that is because we know that you are not just your arm, you're not just your knee, your. Your entire history. You're also the environment that you live in. And Western medicine does that as well. Right. We have the biopsychosocial approach now being used, which is, I think, the Western way of saying holistic. Right. Which is that we're not separate from our society, we're not separate from our environment. But in Chinese medicine, we actually look at what Season is it? And how does that season affect our body? And so they say this is rooted in Daoism. And again, I'm not a big history person, and I'm a little bit like, yeah, that's cool. I just need to know how to do the thing.
So, yeah, the organs of the body each have a meridian associated with them. So let's say you have the gallbladder.
I use the gallbladder meridian, which starts at the little toe and goes all the way up the side of the leg, all the way into the hip, into the sides of the ribs, up the ribs, up the top of the shoulder, up the side of the neck, onto the side of the head, around by the eye. And then I think back again, it's a very long meridian. Now, that meridian is an energetic pathway. And if you were to compare it in Western medicine, the way I look at it is that it's connected to the fascia and the connective tissue.
So I have a point down on the ankle that I use for low back pain, for shoulder pain, actually, for migraines as well, quite often.
And if you look at the connective tissue lines, and I'll explain what that is in a second, because I know not everyone knows what that is. There's a connection between the ankle physically and the body all the way up into the root of the tongue and to the side of the head.
So if people don't know what fascia is, we have muscles, and all around our muscles is a connective tissue called fascia. And I think about it like the white part of an orange, so the fruit, an orange, it's got that white part that goes all around the outside. And then it also has these compartments and it actually connects everything together. So when you pull the pieces, slices of an orange out, you feel that shh, kind of tearing. And our fascia is really the same. Like if you were to open the body and look at the muscles, so they're all connected in that way. And so when we use teeny, tiny little needles down in the ankle, it's going to affect the body as a whole because there's a matrix there. So that's. That's my personal take on one of the reasons that, that I think that acupuncture works for pain in particular and tension in the body.
[00:21:02] Speaker B: It's my understanding that it's the fascia where the actual nerve endings are that respond to the acupuncture needle. Is that, Is that correct?
[00:21:13] Speaker A: So I would say that there are different forms of acupuncture and there are the, the very kind of like westernized version, what we call dry needling right now, which is still. Acupuncture is going after specific nerve bundles. So we call that the motor point of the muscle. And, and that's the little nerve ending area that is accessible kind of more on the surface level. And when we hit that point, it actually causes, not always often a jump. The muscle will twitch a little bit and then release.
So that's one form.
I do think that as they've been looking at where the points are, that yes, there's more nerve endings there. But you know, we have nerve endings everywhere. And I don't, I think it might be deeper than that. You know, it's like, can we measure energy of the body?
No. But can certain people see it sometimes and feel it? And can you have an, a sense of it in your body? I think so. And it's, I don't know that there's a western way of understanding that at this point, but I think it's there and I've experienced it.
[00:22:15] Speaker C: I think you explained that really well, Amy. You know, there is still some that we don't understand, but to your point, there's also so much that we do understand and there's a lot of, you know, science and data backed evidence to show how effective it is. And I'll tell you, you know, as a psychologist, oftentimes when I'm talking to patients about what interventions they've used, what they haven't, what helps, what doesn't help, and oftentimes the topic of acupuncture comes up and you know, I've had some patients just very, you know, kind of brush it aside and they're like, no, I don't want to be a human pin cushion. And I'm like, that's not exactly how it works. But you know, I respect your opinion, but you know, I would encourage you to talk to an acupuncturist first. And you know, I know that some patients, to them it feels a little too, you know, how can I say this? A little too out there. They can't quite understand.
Feels a little, I don't want to say woo, woo, but you know, it kind of is. But you did. And so I just did. Yes, I did.
[00:23:11] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:23:12] Speaker C: It's a little crunchy. It's a little. Yeah. And so something I always point out to my patients because, you know, I get a lot of patients who are very like analytical. They want to understand why. Show me evidence, give me proof. If you do, then maybe I am open to something that I don't understand.
And so, you know, I think you explaining and you know, we've seen these studies, right, the functional MRIs, the EMGs that pick up activity. And even from the psych perspective, we've done a lot of functional MRIs with individuals, you know, who've had acupuncture right after a session. And we've seen, right, a reduction in activity in areas where we know would be active with like, you know, dysregulation. We see an increase in activity in like the frontal lobe and the cerebellum, which helps with like memory. So I know it's been beneficial for like Alzheimer's patients. They find it beneficial for individuals with depression and anxiety. And so I think there's a lot of, of science out there and I think it's important for people to know. You know, While we don't 100% understand how it works a hundred percent of the time, we do have some evidence and some science behind it to show and I, I expect to see a lot more in the future. I'm curious what your thoughts are and in the direction of where acupuncture is going.
[00:24:22] Speaker A: Yep, thank you so much for that. I think the other thing is that people want to discount empirical evidence, which is meaning that we've done it through observation. So you do have 3,000 years of observation that this thing works.
And just because it might be in Chinese and you don't understand that doesn't mean that it's not valid. And so the other thing that's happening is that we're actually getting studies translated. And so there's actually a website, I think it's evidence based acupuncture.org probably where they're actually taking these research studies and bringing them so that you can actually read them and understand them. So there is a lot of value in empirical evidence, even though it's not what we call the quote unquote gold standard of double blind and all that. Like there are those studies that exist, but I don't think it's necessarily the only way that we can understand that something works and that something is helpful for people. And I can just go from my, literally, my patients being like, I cannot, I couldn't skip my acupuncture today. It's like, well, what is it? Just that I'm fun to hang out with? Yeah, probably, but not, you know, like I'm. There's also something else that's happening, right? Like there's another thing that's happening that they're aware Of. And what's really cool is, like, I get patients where for some reason they don't see me for a month and they go, I notice a difference. And it's inspiring to me because I'm not always the best. Like, all of us providers are getting my own acupuncture. And I'm like, that's it. I got to get in here regularly. I need to get my acupuncture going so that I can have that. That overall sense of well being. And I think I lost the thread of what you asked me.
Sorry about that. I'm like, what's the question?
[00:25:53] Speaker C: That's fine. The tangents are sometimes the best.
But I did like something that you said, which is, right, you go and get your own acupuncture. And I'm curious about both Amy and Peter, if you've personal experience getting acupuncture done and what that was like.
[00:26:07] Speaker A: Peter, you want to go first?
[00:26:08] Speaker B: You want me to share?
[00:26:09] Speaker A: Okay. All right.
[00:26:11] Speaker C: I love story time.
[00:26:12] Speaker B: Yeah, I've been dying to share my story, so thank you.
So I had. Sarah knows about this. I had a pretty bad back injury about 10 years ago.
I had a very large, herniated, extruded, disc pinching, pinning a nerve, really, in my spine. And I. I had this horrific sort of sciatica, burning nerve pain going down my leg.
Worst pain I've ever had. And. And I couldn't, you know, I. I couldn't sleep. I couldn't sit in a chair.
I couldn't. You know, I was, I was pretty incapacitated for a while.
And when it first happened, I was trying to figure out what to do. And of course, as I've mentioned in the past, it's very humbling to be that person when you're the doctor taking care of people like that most of the time for many years. And then all of a sudden you're in those shoes and you want to say, well, what's going to be. What's going to be right for me? And one of the things I wanted to do with my strategy to heal was I wanted to give my body the best chance to heal. You know, I didn't want to have to have surgery. I didn't want to have to take heavy medications.
You know, I said, how. How can I win this battle for the long haul? And then I said, you know, I think acupuncture might help me mobilize, you know, my immune cells and my blood flow and these kind of things. And so I wanted to try it.
So what happened was. And I really remember this well, the first time I did it, I went to an acupuncturist near where I live who I worked with, my patients.
I had my first session, and I felt so chill in the room, like I was on another planet almost.
And then I get up when it's time to go, because you sit there with the needles for about 20 minutes, and the warm lights are on, and the room's got nice music, and I get up and I'm like, whoa, what just happened here? And then I gotta drive home, right? So I get in my car, and I'm probably. This is maybe two miles from my house, so it's not far, but there's a number of traffic lights and traffic, and I'm feeling kind of lightheaded, and I'm like, wow, should I really be driving right now? You know?
But I make it home, and I felt so good for about three hours. I felt really great. And I was like, this is amazing, because I really was in horrific pain going into that session.
So then after about three hours, I remember it starts to wear off, you know, and then I wake up the next day, and I'm kind of like, well, that was really good.
I feel kind of crappy again. I went back for second session, and this was. You know, I was working around. I was still working, working around my schedule. So it might have been about five or six or seven days later, and I felt really great again. And I was like, whoa, this is like, chill planet. Like, this is cool.
And then I felt better for about three days afterwards and then started to wear off again, and I was like, okay, I feel like I've made a little bit of progress with this.
So then the third time I did it, I felt like, yeah, I still got a really challenging problem, but. But overall, I think my sense of wellbeing and a feeling of progress was better.
And I remember when you're the patient in the room, you're laying there for a half hour, and you got to occupy your mind a little bit, unless you maybe fall asleep.
So I would visualize my body healing while the needles were in, and I would go through a visualization of how it would repair the injury and the damage and clean up the herniated material and, you know, all that kind of thing.
I don't know if that really how well that helped, but that was kind of what I did. And then I continued to do acupuncture for a period of time afterwards as part of my recovery, along with a rehabilitation program with that.
And I Think it kind of segues a little bit into acupuncture, is covered for back pain, for low back pain by the insurance industry, by Medicare, which is not easy to get, which I think seems to suggest that there's enough scientific proof now that there's real value and efficacy there.
So curious if you have any thoughts about. About me as the. As the acupuncture patient.
[00:31:03] Speaker A: You. You're a great patient. That's the model patient there, which is one that you felt that it did something. We like that. I mean, if it didn't do anything, we still want to know that. But that you came back and you were consistent. And I think that's the thing, is that one treatment, like you said, your experience is quite common. I felt better for a little while, but they actually build upon each other. And. And I really do want people to take that time and be with themselves. And what you're talking about there is that mind body connection. And that's a beautiful thing about this type of medicine, is that it helps connect your mind and your body back together. And that's something that's, I think, very deficient in Western society. We're afraid to breathe. We're afraid to take up space, to be heard. We're so busy that we're not connecting with ourselves and with our own innate ability to heal. And. And using the power of our mind to heal our body, I think is so important, but also just giving ourselves space. And so I like that part of the story where, like, I'm visualizing my body healing. Why not? You know, we know that athletes visualize themselves playing their game perfectly and that certain parts of the brain are lighting up when they're doing that. So why. Why wouldn't we want to. Want to give ourselves that time and space to actually heal? Because the body is wise. The body does know how to heal.
[00:32:22] Speaker B: Exactly what I tell my patients. Hey, if Olympic athletes use visualization, you know, why. Why wouldn't you do that?
[00:32:28] Speaker C: That's a great point. And I think it's important for people to know that while acupuncture treats chronic pain, it treats a variety of conditions. And Amy, working with you, I know that, you know, you've looked into the way it can help, like crps and other complex and painful conditions. Can you tell us a little bit about that? I think that would be really helpful for some of our viewers out there.
[00:32:52] Speaker A: Yeah. So CRPS is complex regional pain syndrome, and it is a very intensely painful region on the body, and it does not have a lot of hope in A lot of ways, like, people with it can be very.
Have a very hard time getting it treated. And I've actually had a few patients where acupuncture is the one thing that actually helped them get through their CRPs and get them on the other side. It's actually one of my favorite success stories is a lady that had a hand post surgery that she couldn't really put her two fingers together. So we were able to over time work with her and desensitize the area. And essentially the area gets very painful. It sometimes can change, and sweat and all kinds of different sensations can happen. So it can be really helpful for things that sometimes there's no hope for for people. And I would say that that's one of the beautiful things about what I do is that I get often people who are in a place where they don't have hope or this is the last thing. And I wish I got people earlier than that. I wish because I could actually do a lot more when it's acute, like, really, truly we can help people, I believe, keep from getting too chronic pain. But even at that point, we can really do a lot to help people. And when somebody finally has hope for the first time, like Peter, you're saying, like, I had this moment where I felt better with this really intense condition. So just giving someone a glimmer of hope can really be so, so powerful. And yeah, that's a very beautiful thing about, about what I do other types of treatments. So, Peter, you were saying that Medicare does cover for low back pain. Other insurances have been covering acupuncture for pain conditions of all kinds. Medicare basically went with what the VA was doing, and the VA was showing that one, that they could help the veterans with acupuncture and their addictions add to pain medications.
And then once the VA kind of had that in place, that's my understanding of why Medicare started actually offering coverage. And that's one of the really cool things about Boomerang healthcare, is that I can actually help actually treat a lot of Medicare patients for their. For their low back pain, which a lot of clinics cannot actually do because you have to work in an office where there's an MD present for Medicare to cover. But other forms of insurance, you can do a private practice and patients can be seen, you know, in a variety of different clinical styles and get a lot of their care covered by insurance.
[00:35:13] Speaker B: Amy, with your orthopedic background and working with a lot of orthopedic injuries, if you were going to give like your top three or four orthopedic conditions that respond really well to acupuncture. And for those listening, wondering if acupuncture is maybe good for them. What's kind of like your top three or four orthopedic problems that you see great results with?
[00:35:35] Speaker A: Great question.
So we see a ton of back problems. Discs, you know, slipped discs, you know, anything really with spondylosis. Spondylolisthesis, anterior thesis. If you have that, you know what it is.
I treat a lot of that and I get really great results. I can't fix the problem completely if there's a structural issue. But can I make life more manageable? Can I help the pain, the nerve pain shooting down the leg? Often, yes.
So if you've got what we call radiculopathy, meaning nerve pain shooting from the spine down to different body parts, they're telling you it's your back, but you're like, it's my leg. And they keep saying it's your back. Come to an acupuncturist. That's something that we're really good at. The other thing I personally am very good at is rotator cuff injuries. Anything with the shoulder, I can't, you know, frozen shoulder, I can't, you know, go in front of myself. I can't go behind myself with my arm. It's hard to wash my hair. It's hard to put my clothes on.
We can do a lot with rotator cuff injuries. It can't fix a full tear. But can I make the painless? Sometimes I can. If it's a full tear, I can sometimes get an improvement in range of motion if it's a partial tear. We can do a lot to improve your range of motion. So I have people that leave my room not being able to, you know, put their clothes on and off very easily. And they're actually much better able to do that even in the moment, like literally when they're there. And then over time it gets better. So when I'm talking about back, I'm also talking about neck, right? So neck pain. Migraines. Pretty good with migraines. Typically, not. Not always. Like, there are a few that are very cranky and will not respond, but headaches are a big one. I see a lot of, you know, what we call, you know, neck related tension headaches, where we can actually relieve a lot of tension in the neck that's going up into the head to the sides of the heads, and we're at the sides of the head and we're actually able to release a lot of that tension and the headaches start to get better.
[00:37:25] Speaker C: It sounds like a lot of promise, you know, regardless of, of what condition you might be living with, it's worth, you know, acupuncture an opportunity. And in many cases, to your point, you know, it can be quite beneficial. Sounds like earlier intervention is better when possible, which is the case with so many of our chronic conditions.
What are some key takeaways or closing notes you'd like to leave us with today?
[00:37:52] Speaker A: I think what you're saying is really great about just giving it a shot. We, you don't know, you need to go in and sometimes you need to try different providers also. We all have different specialties. I always say that acupuncture is an art and a science. And so giving it a real shot, doing consistent treatments of care, where you're going once a week or twice a week for a little while to see if it's actually going to help you. I tell people with a chronic condition, give me five to six treatments to see. You've been dealing with this for 15 years.
Give me, give me a month, you know, to see if it's actually going to be helpful for you.
Because we're working with the body's natural ability to heal, and sometimes it's. We gotta, we have to unlock things to be able to get even to that place.
So even if you're afraid of needles, you can still come in. I have plenty of people who do not like needles, who are afraid of them, and I'm able to work with them, you know, by being patient and kind and showing them that it's not that big of a deal. And again, if it is a big deal, you don't want to do it, you can go. You're not forced to be there where it's okay.
So give us a shot. Let us walk you through the process and explain it so that you know what to expect and we're happy to help.
[00:39:04] Speaker B: So it sounds like acupuncture really unlocks the mind body connection and the healing mechanisms that we're starting to just understand from a science standpoint.
Really appreciate that.
For folks who are interested in seeing an acupuncturist maybe working with you, how can they find you?
[00:39:31] Speaker A: Well, I'm at Boomerang Healthcare in our San Leandro and our Oakland offices. So if you're one of our patients already, the doctors there can refer you to me in the clinic and we can work with insurance and deal with all of those different factors. Our team is really, really good at that. So as far as fighting an acupuncturist. Otherwise, I would always ask somebody who is a medical provider to refer you to someone you know to say, hey, who have you worked with? And we're at a point now in the United States where a lot of doctors are very pro acupuncture, where that was different 10 or 15 years ago. And so you should, should be able to find a referral in that way as well.
[00:40:07] Speaker C: Dr. Amy Thoren, pleasure having you today.
And for everybody who has been tuning in, thank you for joining us on the Comeback with Boomerang Healthcare. We're grateful to have here. If you've enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe so you never miss an update. You can always follow us on social media for more tips, information and inspiration. Until next time, keep moving forward. Your comeback is just getting started.
