Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:10] Speaker B: Welcome to the Comeback with Boomerang Healthcare, your podcast for relief, recovery and restoration. I'm Dr. Peter Abaci And I'm Dr. Sarah Guzet.
[00:00:20] Speaker C: As doctors, we know healing isn't just about treatment. It's about having the right tools, mindset and support to move you forward.
[00:00:27] Speaker B: You can have pain, you might be injured or even hurting on the inside, but with all that you got going on, you can still have a really great life. And that is what we are here for. This is the Comeback. Let's get started.
[00:00:41] Speaker C: Excited to have our guest with us here today. I know it's going to be a lot of psychologists speak for you, Peter. I appreciate you hanging in there with a psychobabble.
[00:00:51] Speaker B: I'm an enlightened anesthesiologist, as they say.
[00:00:55] Speaker C: That you are that, that you are.
[00:00:57] Speaker B: I'm in touch with my inner ISO, Florine, as they say.
[00:01:00] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:01:01] Speaker B: So we have. This is going to be really cool because we're going to be talking about some deep stuff. We're going to be talking about a really great book that recently came out. We're going to be talking with a really brilliant therapist. Her name is Dr. Rachna Boxani. And I think we've. It's just rolling off my tongue now. Dr. Rachna Boxani, welcome to the podcast.
[00:01:23] Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you so much. And thank you for giving a voice to the unseen.
[00:01:27] Speaker B: So we're talking about your book Unseen. Do you want to just tell the listeners a little bit about. About yourself and get the ball rolling?
[00:01:36] Speaker A: Sure.
So I am a therapist. I'm a licensed mental health clinician. Currently I reside in Miami, Florida. But originally from Dubai. That's where I grew up. That's where home is.
And, you know, came to the United States, went to school, went back to Dubai, worked with, headed 21 schools over there as counseling coordinator. Because when I went back, and I'm not going to tell you how many years back, because it's not important, but at that point, we did not have mental health clinics or, you know, it wasn't that accepted. So my way of doing work was through the school system. So I, I ended up, I started with one school, but I ended up heading 21 schools around the UAE as counseling coordinator, got married, moved to the Cayman Islands, worked over there with the government.
So I worked with the Department of Counseling Services in the Cayman Islands. Then we as a family made a decision that we would move to Miami. So I've been here for 12 years and had my practice for about 10.
[00:02:38] Speaker C: Fantastic. So not, not only do you have, you know, the depth, but you also have the breadth. Getting to practice and, and treat people in different countries and cultures. That, that's, that's fascinating, Effy.
[00:02:51] Speaker A: And you know what I found? People have the same problems everywhere when it comes to mental health. It really does cross over, you know, cultures, countries, people. So we would, I just saw the same patterns repeating in different places, only some cultures were a little more accepting than others.
[00:03:11] Speaker C: I was just going to say that, you know, it's a universal experience and the family dynamics that we see, they may voice it in a different language and they might use different figures of speech or even somatic presentations sometimes. Right. Because of the way the culture doesn't necessarily always talk about the emotion.
[00:03:29] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:03:29] Speaker C: But that's exciting. And so tell us about your, your latest project. We're excited to hear about this.
[00:03:37] Speaker A: So it, it's a labor of love, really. I, I was, this book is very close to my heart because I work now, I primarily work with victims and narcissists, toxic abuse. But what happened is, you know, we as clinicians, especially mental health clinicians, we are very, if you pick up the dsm, right, it's very symptom driven and, and that's what we're taught. So when we become mental health therapists and clinicians, that's what we're doing. We're looking for symptoms, we're trying to help people navigate, manage those symptoms. And what I realize is then, then mental health or clinics become a revolving door because, because you never actually get to the bottom of, okay, what is going on. The symptoms, representations of things that people have gone through, trauma that they've gone through in their life. So until we get to that, the healing never happens. Right. So that's what that journey was. And if, you know, when people read the book, that's what it's about. Because even when I started with her, we were looking at symptoms. She actually came to me because she was, we felt there was something wrong with her. She needed to fix herself. She was living her life like she was watching her life pass by. She wasn't actually living, she was just existing. But she didn't know why until, and I didn't know why. So again, this, so programmed as clinicians to just surface level stuff, okay, let's, you know, the symptoms, let's talk about, okay, what do you, what are you feeling and how can we help manage that or make it better? It was only when we started going down to the root of what was causing that that her healing actually started.
So that's why I think this book was so important because we need to move beyond the symptoms. We need to get to the cause of what is bringing people in and, you know, being able to help them in the manner that that's most effective.
[00:05:34] Speaker B: As I was saying before we started, not only has this got a wealth of information in behavioral health and psychology, narcissism and trauma, which, you know, we're going to dive more into, but it's a really well written book. I mean, your writing style I thought was excellent and I think this will be appealing and interesting to lay people as well as healthcare people, behavioral health people. Maybe we could start by talking about, for, for listeners, just personality disorders, what that is and where, where narcissism fits in there as, as a potential personality disorder and, or personality traits in some cases. And then we can maybe dive into all this information you're. You got in this great book.
[00:06:20] Speaker A: Yes, sure. I don't like how the DSM categorizes it, but I'm going to give you the DSM version of it. But so personality, their traits. Right. So their traits that people are born with and you know, so there's some genetics and then there's obviously the upbringing, the parenting part of it. Now those personality traits result in certain behaviors. We have different personality disorders as characterized by the dsm. So we have antisocial personality, of course, narcissistic, borderline histrionic. Again, not a categorization that I like, but it's there ocpd, which is Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder. So the we have, and what TSM has done is it's, it's moved it into clusters. So narcissism comes in the cluster B of personality disorders where the other ones are like borderline histrionics. These are difficult, really challenging personality disorders that exist amongst people.
Narcissism sits on a continuum. That's not what the DSM says. That's what the experts in the field have said that, you know, it sits on the continuum of where one side you have the vulnerable narcissist. Somewhere in the middle is the grandiose. And then you have the malignant narcissist. You can also have people with narcissistic shapes. So it doesn't have to be narcissistic personality disorder. The statistics or of people who actually are diagnosed with NPD is very minimal. That's because they don't come in. So what, what we understand is that there are again, the experts in the field, you know, have pointed out that somewhere between one in five or one in six people has narcissistic traits. And those narcissistic traits can be extremely damaging to the people around them. Because narcissistic trauma, narcissism is. Or personality affects relations.
Narcissism is a relational disorder. So what, what it does is it affects the people around the narcissist much more intensely than it does the narcissist itself. So is there's a lot of people getting hurt by one person. And then when, you know, because we talk about the family role, so when children are put into those roles and those traits, then you know, sometimes persistent and there. Then we have intergenerational trauma. Yes, yes.
[00:08:49] Speaker C: And I, and I think you touched upon a really important thing that I know we've probably both seen in our practice, which is the narcissistic personality disorder. Or a person who has a lot of those traits typically don't seek treatment. And I think that's really important to know.
Oftentimes when I'm working with individuals and I think before I over pathologize them, let me hear about their family a bit more. And then sometimes, you know, we don't diagnose people, we don't treat retreat, but sometimes we'll hear some things. And I thought you did a beautiful job of that in your book where, right. You, you tell the story of a daughter in the shadow of her narcissistic father. And you get to see. Right. And it's, and it's relatable for a lot of individuals, especially when you think about how common, having some narcissistic flavor or tendency. Right. A lot of us will use those terms and it really is quite more prominent than, Than people believe.
[00:09:41] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:09:42] Speaker C: And I'm curious just for our audience, if you could speak to like some of the personality traits they might see in a narcissist.
[00:09:48] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. See, and that's where it gets also so confusing. So, you know, when we think about narcissism, we, you know, we think the grandiose person, the very charismatic, the very, you know, the charming, the manipulative and yes, a lot of the, you know, the entitlement and the arrogance and all of that, but they're different kinds of narcissists. So. And I think what we then do is, and I always say that DSM has such a small definition for such a big problem because it can show up in so many different ways because we have the COVID narcissist or the vulnerable. We had to change those words. But you Know, the presentation, even though they have the sense of entitlement and they have this, you know, the arrogance. But the principal presentation is very different for a vulnerable or a covert narcissist because they don't present as the larger than life person. They. They actually present very.
Who is me, the victim. If only the world would have given me a chance, I would have been able to do so much better.
So, you know, and, and that doesn't mean that that presentation is not hurtful in relationships. So I think where it gets confusing is because when we think of narcissism, we think this, this one type of.
But then it should be that person who's very selfish and who's very arrogant and who's very, you know, just I, me, myself. But it always doesn't present like that. Right. So the vulnerable presents differently, the communal presents differently because they are so nice to the community. Oh my gosh, they're going out of their way to do these charitable things and. But only to get the right so. And if they don't get that attention or the ad libs, then it makes them very angry. So. But that's not what people are seeing and that's why it gets very, very confusing.
[00:11:43] Speaker B: Rachna, I. One of the impressions I got from, from your book is that narcissists and the different flavors of it, it's kind of an external shield of kind of deep seated internal insecurities that the person has that is that. Am I understanding that right?
[00:12:02] Speaker A: It is true. You know, the. One of the biggest misconceptions about narcissists is that they love themselves. They actually don't. They. They actually hate themselves, you know, and what they do is they're walking around the world projecting that hate onto other people. So. And if anyone remotely reminds them of. And that's how the scapegoat. Right, so the nurse narcissist picks the scapegoat child because there's something that the scapegoat child is doing in terms of, you know, maybe like just, you know, naturally that, you know, that's their character or behavior that they're doing that the narcissist just despises within him or herself. And that's how they pick the scapegoat. So they actually do not love themselves.
Far from. Yes. It comes from a deep, deep level of insecurity. They still choose their behaviors because there are other people who have, you know, deep levels of insecurity who don't go around damaging other people's lives.
[00:13:03] Speaker C: You speak about the scapegoat But I also love that you identify, especially in family systems. We see a lot of different roles. Right. And I was wondering if you might be able to talk a little bit about that, because I also see. And I'm sure you do, too, a lot of times it's used in pop culture or movies incorrectly. I'm like, that's not exactly that dynamic. But, you know, we've got the golden child, you've got the caretaker. You talked about the scapegoat. Tell us a little bit bit more about those dynamics and how that. How that presents in a family.
[00:13:31] Speaker A: So the golden child is picked because the narcissistic parent most identifies with that child. So now they are picked not a good thing.
Because they have their own level of insecurity that they have to live with. Because. Because a narcissistic parent has put now this child on a pedestal. But here's the thing. First of all, no children need to be on a pedestal. Nobody human being needs to be there.
Because when you're on there on a pedestal, you always have the fear that you can get off it. So the golden child's main job is to keep doing exactly what the narcissistic parent wants. And then, you know, as long as they do that, they are on the pedestal, so they are picked. Like I said, you know, it could be the narcissistic parent identifies with this child the most. They feel like, okay, you know what? This person would kind of carry my legs ahead. So I'm going to groom this child to be able to do that. So that's how the golden child is picked. And like I said, but. But a very insecure place, you know, because I think the misconception around the golden child is, ooh, that's a great place to be because you're the chosen one. No, no, because they live constantly with that insecurity of getting off that pedestal. There are, you know, like, golden children who sometimes then become narcissistic themselves because they have been raised on that pedestal.
So we see that sometimes happening. But again, not a good role to be in the scapegoat. Like I said, that's the child. That something about that child just reminds the narcissistic parent about things that they don't like within themselves. That's how the scapegoat is picked. My gosh, terrible. Because that child is blamed for everything that happens with the family. So something goes wrong, this child is going to be the one who's going to bear the brunt of it. Of the bear of the narcissistic parents. Sometimes it's also, again, if the golden child has narcissistic traits, then, you know, this child bears the brunt of. Of all of it. Sometimes in a small percentage of scapegoats, we do see them becoming vulnerable narcissists. Again, a small percentage because they have been so accustomed to being helpless, being in that, you know, and maybe somebody coming and rescuing, if there's another sibling who's like the caretaker or the personal assistant who comes and keeps rescuing the scapegoat. Sometimes again, in a small percentage, we do see scapegoats sometimes becoming vulnerable narcissists. The invisible child, which was my client, they're just there. I mean, you know, it's an inconvenience. They're there. They don't really exist for the narcissistic parent unless the parent needs something and then they have to show up at that point. Point. But whether they're there or not, there is very irrelevant to the family dynamic. So they, they really do grow up unseen. And, and you know, a very, again, very difficult place to be in because you're not sure why or what you're doing that's causing your parent to just not even acknowledge your existence. Right. So. And you know, like I talk about in the book, the only time they are acknowledged is when they like, so in her case, if, if she was unwell or she had an eating disorder. So at that point when the parent gets involved, but it's more out of like, how dare you. Inconvenience. Right. So it's not coming from a place of, oh, I see you now. But it's more like, why are you doing this? The caretaker, the helpers, they are the ones who just are the peace. Peacekeepers. They're the ones who want to make sure that everything is okay. Like, okay, let's get everything clean. You know, let's. Let's. Because, because else dad will get upset. So let's just do whatever, you know, the narcissistic parent wants so that there's this peace. So they go around doing whatever needs to be done. They are called Peacekeepers or the fixers, you know, and they adopt that rule. Okay, I'm just going to make sure everything's okay so that nothing. Like when he comes home, everything's okay. We have the personal assistants. So they, again, they go around just making sure everybody has what they need. While the Peacemaker is more about emotional, you know, just making sure emotionally everybody's okay. The personal assistant is more making sure that physically everybody has what they need. So that, that it, you know, these are survival mechanisms. These roles are sometimes given by the parent, assigned by the parent. Right. Especially with the. With the Golden Child escape code.
Some. Some of the roles are just adopted by the child itself because it's a means of survival. It's finding some sort of calm in the chaos of what their world is.
[00:18:14] Speaker B: Rachna, I gotta tell you something funny. We were at a. Basically a big church function the other day. We were at an event. We're, you know, meeting people that we didn't know. And we meet this one couple, and my wife asks the other wife, do you have children? And she says, yes, I have two doctors. She says, I have two doctors. That was her answer. Do you have children? We were like, whoa, don't want to know what's going on there.
[00:18:38] Speaker A: Right, right. And the thing is. But that's what she sees, the utility.
[00:18:44] Speaker B: Yeah, right.
[00:18:45] Speaker A: It kind of. You're not even. It's not about being human beings. It's. It's. What purpose are those children serving in her life? I do want. There's. There's one role on those roles I'm going to finish off because the last role is of the truth. See a really important role sometimes the truth, you know, so this is the child who's kind of naturally born with that gift to look and say, wow, what is going on?
There's something clearly wrong with my family. Or. And you know, so they see it. They don't necessarily have the vocabulary. Right. So it's not like, oh, yeah, this is a nice family system. But they see, see it now. Sometimes a truth seer ends up being a truth teller.
Not always. It's. So it's not always that when people, when children see it, that they also are able to verbalize it. But some of them do become truth tellers. And then in some cases, those truth tellers become scapegoats.
Because. So what I wanted to tell you is that these roles are not like, definitely defined roles. Right? So like the golden child. Okay. But there might be an instance where maybe one of the other children takes on that role for some time. So these roles get interchanged all the time, and children can play more than one role in a family system.
[00:20:06] Speaker C: And then to your point too, like, I imagine as they age, and maybe they start to notice the pattern, have some right. Emotional intelligence. You know, they might be like, oh, I was the golden child and I accepted that role. Now I'm seeing what's happening in this dynamic, and I don't like it. Right. And so, and oftentimes I imagine golden
[00:20:26] Speaker A: children who sometimes have that, you know, the survivors guilt sort of, you know, because it's like, oh, wow, I was given this preferential treatment and, and oh, you know, like, and look at how my siblings have been treated. So. Yes, you do.
[00:20:41] Speaker C: Absolutely. And then I imagine you see them in your practice reporting and struggling other symptoms and other struggles in their. And when you peel back the layers, you can see some of that pattern. Right. Which is where we get the term generational trauma. And if that person doesn't have that insight and awareness to change it, it would continue.
[00:20:59] Speaker A: Absolutely, absolutely. You know, when my clients talk to me, because they talk to me about healing, you know, we're going to heal. And I said, for the rest of your life, we all are. Right. I don't think healing is.
Oh, I can look at it in the rearview mirror of my currency. That was then, this is now. No, it, it's, it's a journey to me. It's a very empowering journey. It's, it's. No, it's a journey back to self. So that journey is a lifelong. Absolutely.
[00:21:28] Speaker B: It seemed like one of the other themes with the different roles that the children might assume in these relationships is that they, they have their own relationship problems as they grow older and they have a hard time experiencing joy, feeling loved, you know, establishing supportive, loving family relationships with their spouse and their children. And that's kind of what maybe brings them to you because they're trying to find that, help us find some of that. How do you do, how do you work through that? Because that's ultimately what I think they're looking for.
[00:22:05] Speaker A: Yeah, so, so yes, you're right. A lot. We see a lot of people come in because now they're having, you know, they've gotten to a point like for her, you know, lovely husband, kids, but just not happy, very empty. Right. So what's wrong with me? And that. What brings them in?
And I think the biggest thing is it's difficult to trust. So for people who have been, you know, children of toxic family systems, including narcissistic families, and they find it extremely difficult to trust someone. So they're never going to be vulnerable, they're never going to open up to their spouse. They're never going to let people see them for who they are because they haven't learned that it's okay to be who they are. They don't even, they. So it's, you know, so when they come in, and that's what I'm saying. The journey of healing for them is not about the relationships. The journey of healing is back to self. They have to give to themselves what they were never awarded by their families.
That's the only way that they're going to be okay in their other relationships. So my work with them, and I'm a, you know, big. I love IFS. And I had the great honor of interviewing Dr. Richard Schwartz for the book. And that's what the journey of ifs is. It's really a journey back to self, like awarding yourself that compassion so that you can be okay with you.
And when you're okay with you, then that trickles down to your relationships. So you can't start with fixing those relationships. It's not going to work. You really have to start within for the person.
[00:23:52] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:23:53] Speaker A: Otherwise, question.
[00:23:56] Speaker C: Go ahead, Peter.
[00:23:57] Speaker A: Peter, did it answer your question? Yes. Yes.
[00:24:01] Speaker C: He looked like you called on him in class. It's okay, Peter.
[00:24:04] Speaker B: Excuse me.
No, I think what I'm hearing is, as you said in the beginning, it really starts with understanding the roots of the problem. And someone comes to you and says, I'm seeing you because I'm depressed or I'm not getting along well with my husband or.
Or I'm just not feeling fulfilled as a mother or father. You can go round and round and round in that in therapy for a long time and not maybe make real rooted progress. And it's only when you're able to kind of see what the dynamics were of that person's family when they were a child and where maybe some of the trauma was created that that person can really start to heal.
And it sounds like even when that starts, it becomes a long journey that never really ends, just sort of becomes part of the journey you manage, right?
[00:25:01] Speaker A: So what happens is. So the first, like, say 50% of the work that we do is psychoeducation, you know, that awareness, okay, what.
What brought me here.
And that's push and pull, right? Because nobody's coming in saying, oh, you know what? My father was a nurse. Nobody wants to hear that. So very gentle. Who. You know, when you figure out that, okay, maybe this is what is going on, you bring it out to the client, you let them sit with it, let them marinate with it, and you hold space for them while they're doing that. Once they've. There's an acceptance of, okay, that's what was going on. And there's then the psychoeducation around it as to, okay, this. This is what happened. This is what happened. As you were growing up, you Know,
[00:25:47] Speaker B: it's interesting what the subject we're talking about with Sarah and I. A lot of the patients that we work with have had traumatic injuries. And you know, we, we deal with cat catastrophe, life catastrophes, catastrophic injuries in many cases. And when you take that sort of event in a person's adult life and then you add in whatever may have challenges, they may have had years and years before that, and then it, you know, that impacts how they heal from the present trauma.
It becomes very complicated. It's why we need intelligent people like Sarah who are smarter than me to work through that.
But do you see, you see the challenge there of, you know, when you add all that up, how do you get to, to healing on the other side of that?
[00:26:37] Speaker A: You know, I think the biggest problem we have is that there isn't synergy between mental health and medical. And I don't see how we've come so far.
[00:26:47] Speaker B: Let's talk about that.
[00:26:48] Speaker A: We're still not there.
I don't think we can heal medical illnesses without healing. You know, I mean, there's so much research that has been done about, you know, whether it's autoimmune disorders like this. There's just so much of research that tells us that if there is unhealed trauma, it is going to show up as a medical illness. The problem is there's no way of, yes, you can manage the symptoms of the medical illness, but to truly heal, you do need to go back and help people heal the trauma. I feel we should have a medical team for every patient that includes a mental health professional. I just don't see how else we are going to get to a point where we are actually going to be able to heal people who are coming to us.
[00:27:43] Speaker C: I couldn't agree with you more. The truth of the matter is if this was a medical condition, if it was an infection, we wouldn't put them on a low dose antibiotic. We would eventually have to, if it's a cyst, clean it out.
We don't do that when it comes to mental health. We don't get to the source and actually truly address the issue. I have had the pleasure of being in some, you know, medical settings, including the one now with, you know, with, with Dr. Abachi, who is very collaborative. And that is something that the medical model doesn't always set up for us, where you have, you know, a provider coming to you and letting you know, like, hey, this patient's reporting a significant increase in their pain and there's some issues.
And I realize it's you know, whatever it is. It's also, whenever her family of origin is in town, I'm like, thank you. I'll go unpack that with them. All right, let's go get into that.
[00:28:32] Speaker A: Yes, yes.
[00:28:33] Speaker C: But it's. It's true. Hundreds and thousands of studies have shown that your childhood trauma, the experiences that we've had, our body is carrying it, and sometimes it's just on silent until it's not. And then it comes out and it's loud and it's angry and it's presenting in autoimmune conditions, health conditions, and of course, chronic pain.
[00:28:54] Speaker A: Yes. And terminal illnesses like can. You know, I mean this again, so many studies that, that, you know, link childhood trauma to terminal illnesses. And all I'm saying is I think we just need partnerships. We. Where, you know, we're looking at this person holistically, mind, body, soul. Because there's no other way of healing people. Unless you actually are able to get to those three.
Absolutely.
[00:29:24] Speaker C: And I think with early screening and the education. Right. And things like this, this podcast, having this conversation, hopefully someone listening is picking up on some of this and thinking, oh, I wonder if I should go talk to somebody. Maybe it is time. Because I love what you said, which is healing is not. Right. A destination on the journey. It sounds more like a passenger, and it's constantly there with you. Part of the copilot.
[00:29:47] Speaker A: Right. It's a lovely partner to have. Can I tell you? I mean, you know, in her case, when, you know, her journey of. Of healing has been so empowering and, and she healed. Really? Oh, my gosh. I never get triggered. No, but that's. That's not the goal. The goal is when you do get triggered, you're going to be mindful of it. You're going to take a step back and say, what do I need at this time moment? Right. And being. Allowing yourself to take that, that's the other problem. Because when we don't, don't offer.
Offer ourselves compassion, we might get overwhelmed, but we still feel like we have to keep going. Versus when you're on this healing journey, you say, you know what? No, hold on. Maybe I need a break. Maybe I need to go take a bath and, you know, just unwind and you give yourself permission to do that, so.
[00:30:35] Speaker B: Or have a piece of cake, right?
[00:30:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I'll have a piece of cake. Yeah, sure.
[00:30:40] Speaker B: Just asking for a friend.
[00:30:44] Speaker A: You can have the cake.
Thank you.
[00:30:46] Speaker B: Rachana, there was something in your book you said, and I was. I wanted you to talk more about it. You talked about the therapist interviewing the client and noticing what the hands did before the voice came, before the answer came from the mouth. And you said, that's always a clue to what's going on. I don't know if I'm describing it quite right, but can you. Can you elaborate on that a little bit more? And. And how what you observe with the physical body and how it relates to the emotional self, you know, as. Cause it kind of fits into this topic of the kind of mind, body, and how we need the two to heal together. But I thought it was a pretty interesting observation that you made, and. And I would love it if you could elaborate on that.
[00:31:31] Speaker A: So I feel not only hands, right? Everything.
And that's why I think this world of telehealth now with us, you know, mental health professionals. I'm not a fan because I can't see the whole body when I'm, you know, doing sessions with my clients. But I think it's the body almost always.
Like, for her, when she came in, even the way she sat was very different initially, you know, as compared to when the sessions went on because she was guarded. So when you. Your, you know, when you're emotionally guarded, your body reacts accordingly. And, and the way you sit, the way you act, the way, you know, there's. There's a restriction of how you. What you're allowing your body to do versus when you are. You begin to love yourself or you have more compassion for yourself. You begin to accept things about yourself. And so the body is always giving us signs. In fact, you know, 97% of communication is body language and tone. Right. So that. That body language is so important when we're sitting with clients, and we see those change as the clients get more comfortable, as they begin to trust the therapist and themselves. Absolutely.
[00:32:52] Speaker C: You also talk a lot throughout the book about trauma bonding, which is another good concept. Right. Which is another concept that I think, before we even dive into it, one, let's make sure everybody understands what we're talking about when we say trauma bonding. Because I hear it all the time, used incorrectly in movies and things like that.
[00:33:10] Speaker A: There's a real trauma bonding than the TikTok version of trauma.
[00:33:13] Speaker C: Yes, exactly. DSM versus TikTok.
[00:33:16] Speaker A: But listen, I don't even think it's in the DSM. I'm just saying. But the clinical definition of trauma bonding is when someone is in a relationship and the relationship pattern is up and down. Right. So there's good, bad, good, bad that keeps a person stuck. It's almost like an addiction, you see, because every time it's bad, you're waiting for the next time that like, okay, what can I do? Maybe if I do, this can get back to that place of being good. Because good is quite intoxicating. So it's. That is a trauma bonded relationship where you are in the, like, the cycle of the good, bad, good. That cycle keeps you stuck. The TikTok version is, oh, you have a trauma, I have a trauma. We are in a relationship. They're trauma bonded. That's not accurate.
[00:34:10] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. I hear people say that all the time where, like, you know, maybe they don't like, you know, like their boss and they're like, oh, we're trauma bonded co workers. And I'm like, not quite. It's the. The other.
It could be, you know, source of the trauma. Yes, yes, essentially. Yes.
[00:34:26] Speaker A: And it is, you know, and they are. That, you know, the trauma bondedness is that you're bonded in this relationship, you know, a traumatic relationship, because of the cycle.
[00:34:38] Speaker C: And why is it so hard to break even when we have, you know, the individual has the insight and the awareness and they're starting to pick up the pattern. It's hurting me. And yet it's so hard sometimes for them to break it. So you want to speak a little bit to that?
[00:34:52] Speaker A: Yes, of course. So it is hard, I'll tell you, for so many reasons. Let me give you some examples. Maybe, you know, because like I said, I work with primarily now. My caseload is just victims of narcissistic abuse. I have. I had, you know, one of my clients, she.
Her husband, narcissist, and he one day just got up and left two kids. He said, I'm just down. I'm fed up. I'm going to go away. Okay. She came to me to fix herself because she's like, oh, my gosh, how do I get him back? Because, you know, she was with me for four years. Through the four years, I knew what was going on. You know, obviously we talked about narcissism and everything, but. But it took some time. So not initially, right. Because she had to be open, but even then there was so much of dissonance because it was just that. No, no. But.
[00:35:43] Speaker C: But.
[00:35:44] Speaker A: Because one of the things I used to bring up is do you think maybe there's somebody else involved? No, no, no, no. That cannot be. That can. And until the four years, because, you know, when. When she only found out during her divorce proceedings that there was in fact somebody else and she, you know, but by then she was empowered enough to take that blow. So I think one of the reasons they stay is because if you've invested, look, you know, when, when we talk about the patterns of a narcissistic relationship, it doesn't feel, start bad. So the first phase, which is the love bombing or, you know, it's a very intoxicating phase.
So that's when you are kind of hooked. Once you're hooked, then starts the other patterns of devaluing or discarding. But by then, think about it, you've already invested X amount of time into this relationship. So some people stay because, you know, oh, I've got a family, I've got kids, or how could I be so stupid? No, no, no, no, you know, and then that's where the discourse comes at. No, they'll justify it because they have to accept that. And it's not that they've been stupid because. Because here's the thing. Anyone, anyone can get into a narcissistic relationship. No matter what your position is, you know, of your education. We all could fall victims to narcissist and narcissistic relationships. But for them, it's very hard because it's almost like, how did I not see this? Like, what is wrong with me? Right? So that's, you know, so some people stay because of that. Some people stay because they've got children. And now it's like, okay, I don't know how to navigate this. But, but again, the trauma, bonded cycles are very addictive. So they stay because it's not all bad.
[00:37:28] Speaker B: Russia. I wanted to ask you something. Your work, your book, unseen, it focuses on the individual that you're working with and their dynamics with their family or where they're, their childhood. But I remember many years ago reading an article, actually I think it was in the Harvard Business Review, about narcissism within organizations and, you know, companies. And it's very common for narcissistic personalities to become CEOs or to become leaders, large organizations, corporations, many times. And I'm wondering for people who are listening, who maybe are. They got a job, you know, they go to work and they got a boss who sounds a lot like what this lady in this book is dealing with. Do you have any, any sort of tips or ideas or insights on how in our, in our work life we can navigate some of this, which can create, I think, toxicity in relationships at work.
[00:38:26] Speaker A: If you can get out, please do disclaimer if you, if you absolutely need the job and, and, you know, and, and you can't get out of this situation and you know, you're just stuck, then have first of all awareness that this is what is going on and this is a pattern that's not going to change no matter what you do. So I think building an understanding and awareness of, oh, my boss fighting a narcissist because that almost immediately makes you separate yourself from the person. Because if I don't do that, then, then I run the risk of internalizing everything that my boss is telling me. And I tend to evaluate myself based on this narcissist. Right. So I think that awareness and education is very important. And then the boundaries, the internal boundaries that we need to set for ourselves that, okay, I know he's saying this, but I, I cannot take this personally because I know who he is and I know what the personality is. Now, that doesn't mean it's not going to hurt. So at that point, when you do have, if you, you know, somebody does have a very difficult interaction with the narcissistic boss, then understand that you're going to have to like take some time to regulate, to get back to the space that you want to, want to be at. Keep conversations very blah. Do not talk to them about your personal stuff. Do not tell them things that you know, nothing good, nothing bad, just very work related. Because, because you really can't get deep with these people. And I love, you know, so Dr. Ramani has the deep. So don't go deep, don't defend, don't engage.
Again, very difficult to do. So, you know, don't personalize. All these things are, they're not easy. But that's the only way to survive if you are not able to get out of it. But if you can get out, please do. Because I actually had one of my clients who developed chronic fatigue syndrome because, because she was dealing with a narcissistic boss. And then subsequently, because like they left Florida so I couldn't continue seeing her, but I found out subsequently they got it like, you know, she and her husband who were so good together, but they got divorced because it just, just kept getting worse.
[00:40:49] Speaker B: It zapped all the energy out of
[00:40:50] Speaker C: her and then threw off her own relationships and other dynamics and all that because. Right. Being exposed to such a toxic individual impacted her. Not just that week, it wasn't just I had a bad day or they were a little critical, but. Right. It impacted her physically, psychologically and indefinitely.
[00:41:10] Speaker A: Yes, yes. So again, if it's not, if you can get another job, please, because that's the best case scenario. But if you can't you know, just keep those interactions very surface level, you know, build your awareness, build your education, build your boundaries stronger and have the support system.
[00:41:31] Speaker C: And I imagine a part of that support system may indeed be also connecting, right, with a therapist and, and perhaps an IFS therapist. And so, you know, IFS has gained a lot of publicity lately. There's a lot of awareness in that, that family systems approach. And for our listeners who've never heard of ifs, could you elaborate a little bit about that approach and why it works specifically well for this kind of trauma?
[00:41:59] Speaker A: I know ifs. So ifs, I must say, they're not that. Even though, yes, people are finding out they're not. They're not too many IFS trained therapists because, you know, the process to get trained is a little tricky. But even if you can get someone who has the knowledge of ifs, it's a trauma therapy. I feel it's one of the most compassionately complete techniques that there is. Because really what it's doing is, like I said, it's bringing you back to self. It's, it's. It, you know, you're giving yourself that compassion. It's, you know, obviously the founder is Dr. Richard Schwartz, and what, you know, he was a family systems therapist. So he, you know, when, and equally important, when you are sitting with a client to understand the familial dynamics. So what he started realizing is that we have parts within us that when somebody goes through a traumatic incident or that, you know, their parents are toxic or so they've gone through a traumatic upbringing, they develop partners. These are protecting parts where, you know, so IFS calls the managers or the firefighters, but these are all parts that protect us. So. And they protect us from not getting hurt. So somewhere along the way, I developed a protective part because I have, you know, an alcoholic father. So there's a lot of chaos in my environment. Right. Okay.
I developed the part of, okay, I'm going to make sure that I take care of my younger sister because. Or brother, because I know dad's going to come and then he's going to be drunk. So I'm going to make sure that I just, you know, put him, him or her to bed so that he doesn't get to see this. So now I, I have adopted the part of the rescuer. Right. So those parts then play out in all my future relationships. But also I, as a person, I get tired of, of carrying the weight of rescuing everyone then, you know, so healing those parts, going back and healing those parts because I don't need to play those roles right now. But the part doesn't know that because the part doesn't know how old I am or what I've done in my life. So, you know, offering that compassion to that part and, you know, unburdening that part some.
The job it took over so that I can be okay, and I can. And as we keep healing those protective parts, we keep moving closer to self is where I have courage and confidence and clarity and calm, you know, the eight C's that Dr. Schwartz talks about. But then I'm living life based on those qualities of the courage and confidence. And I'm not living my life just blowing out fires or feeling like I have to protect everyone and being constantly exhausted and feeling constantly empty. Does that help understand a little bit of ifs?
[00:45:02] Speaker C: I thought you explained it beautifully, Peter.
[00:45:05] Speaker B: I think it was great. I think so many interesting points. You know, we talked about a few of them today. There's so many pearls in your book unseen. If there was one. Take home message for readers who might be interested in this topic, interested in getting the book, maybe A, tell us what that take home would be and B, how people can find your book.
[00:45:27] Speaker A: So you can find my book on all the book platforms. Amazon, Barnes and Nobles.
[00:45:32] Speaker B: That narcissistic Amazon guy.
[00:45:34] Speaker C: Yeah, he's everywhere.
[00:45:37] Speaker A: I so agree.
So, yes, but the proceeds from the book are going to the Miami Dade human trafficking condition.
So if someone does buy the book, then you're also helping a very good cause. So that's. That's where you get the book from. I want the takeaway to be that I know that this, you know, that the, the journey of healing is. Is not an easy one. But I do hope after reading my book that people feel empowered to go on that journey because it's, it, it's a beautiful, beautiful journey to go on. And really it's just coming back to yourself, getting to know yourself for the first time for some people, beginning to love yourself for the first time for so many people and truly then enjoying being you, which most of these now adults, then kids have never really gotten a chance to do.
[00:46:32] Speaker C: Well, it was absolutely wonderful having you on the show and I can't thank you enough for, for your time, your compassion and bringing this to. To light and giving it a voice so that more people are aware of this pattern and how it can impact.
So thank you so much for being here today.
[00:46:49] Speaker A: No, thank you. Thank you for having me. I have just started working on my next one, which is about narcissistic siblings. Which adds a whole chaotic layer. Generally, siblings outlive our parents.
So it's just a dynamic that stretches even longer in most people's lives. So. So, yes. But I really appreciate you, you know, taking the time because this is a topic that I think people need to know about. So thank you.
[00:47:20] Speaker C: Absolutely. And we'll be on the lookout for the for the next book as well, so. Fantastic.
Well, thank you, everyone, for joining us today on the Comeback with Boomerang Healthcare. We're grateful to have you here. If you've enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe so you never miss an update. You can always follow us on social media for more tips, information and inspiration.
Until next time, keep moving forward. Your Comeback is just getting started.
